The US intelligence analyst (and apparently avid reader) who spied for Israel now wants to expel all Gazans, perhaps to Ireland.
Jonathan Pollard, the former US intelligence analyst convicted of spying for Israel, is reportedly planning to join far-right Israeli politics, and now advocates the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza, as punishment for supporting Hamas. This is a fringe, disastrous, and immoral idea. But it did produce an illuminating debate today on the Israeli international TV channel I24.
Inter alia, Pollard accused me of spending my career undermining Israel, of not knowing history and of being “fed” information by miscreants in the Israel’s security establishment. I24 anchor Ellie Hochenberg, normally a calming presence, seemed on edge, as if expecting a meltdown at any moment. But we kept it civil nonetheless, perhaps because Pollard revealed that he said he is a reader (if not, alas, a fan).
Whatever other calamities are to come, I’m pretty sure the Gazans will not be expelled. And I offer here, as a weekend service to subscribers, the video (above) and an only slightly redacted transcript (below, with a bit of commentary in cases where it was somehow too impolite to interrupt).
Hochenberg, introducing Pollard: Earlier in the war, he said Israel should have shut the mouths of hostage families. Now he eyes annexation, deportation (and) Gazans to be sent to Ireland. What do you mean by sending Gazans to Ireland, sir?
Pollard: Hamas was a creation of the Palestinian people in Gaza. It wasn’t something that was imposed on them. It was something that was elected by them. (Not exactly true; Hamas in 2006 won a plurality and not a majority of the vote for parliament and not the executive, in all the Palestinian areas, then seized Gaza a year later by force – DP). … So as far as where they can go is concerned, I find it very unusual, and it should be pointed out, that not one Arab country, nor Iran, nor Turkey, wants them. And it isn’t because they’re afraid of denying the Palestinians a half-state in Gaza. It’s just they realize that wherever these people go, revolution, terror, it comes in their wake. There is absolutely no way we can guarantee security for our southern communities if we allow any of the current residents of Gaza to remain. This is why I’ve been in favor of annexation and repopulation by Jewish citizens, by Israeli citizens, in Gaza. They started the war, okay? They started it, they lost. So I’m sorry, but by the rules of war and history, they lose basically everything.
EH: Mr. Perry … please chime in.
Dan Perry: I share Mr. Pollard’s anger at what happened on Oct. 7th. And like him, I do blame the Palestinian public for supporting Hamas to the degree that they do. However, I fear he is desperately wrong about the rules of war and precedents in history. Many countries in history have started wars. I can’t think of too many that were fully depopulated as a consequence. Look, the extreme right around the world typically advocates simplistic solutions to complicated problems, sometimes flirting with immorality, and populations, when they’re traumatized, as Israel’s is, sometimes can be seduced for a time. But I don’t know too many cases in history, and Mr. Pollard mentioned history, where countries that had a flirtation with such fascism and extreme nationalism looked back upon it with pride. And the expulsion of the entire population of Gaza, I fear, is a case in point. … It’s both immoral and impracticable. It would be a case of ethnic cleansing, which is a war crime. Israel would be dragged again to the Hague where this time there would not be a discussion about it (as during the recent genocide debate – DP)– there would be an immediate conviction. Israel would lose all its allies in Europe, which is its number one trading partner, and America, its number two trading partner – and its protector, without which it wouldn’t have spare parts, and would become quickly a state mounting a desperate defense against an onslaught from the entire world. But this time, in the status of being totally ostracized and having foresworn what’s left of its international standing.
JP: We don’t have any international standing. We don’t have any and it’s because of people like you that have spent your career undermining our rights to survival as Jews in our own God-given land.
DP: How have I done that? I’m sorry. Mr. Pollard, that’s a big accusation. Why are you accusing me of undermining Israel’s ability to exist?
JP: I have read your material for quite a while and it’s quite clear…
EH: Gentlemen, let’s try to refrain from…
DP: Look, just to be clear … I have advocated the partition of the country into an Israeli and Palestinian state, which Israel needs to salvage itself demographically. The right wing in Israel appears to be too clueless to understand that without a partition, Zionist democratic Israel will die. The far right, by advocating expulsion, may be immoral but at least it can do math.
EH: Mr. Pollard, you mentioned Israel’s lack of global standing, as you’ve put it. What’s your take on the American stance on the war? Should they have been more supportive? Should Israel listen more? Listen less? Do you think Biden really has Israel’s best interest at heart?
JP: No they don’t. The United States is becoming a belligerent right now and not a supporter or even an ally. If you’re in favor of a two-state solution, if you’re in favor of a slow suicidal death for Israel, then yes, I guess the United States is an ally of Israel. But if you’re not…
DP: Mr. Pollard, if you don’t favor partition — and also don’t favor expulsion, but you apparently do — then what you’re looking at is a binational state that … will not be Israel.
JP: No, I’m not. No, I’m not. That’s a simple distinction that people like you make.
DP: Those are the numbers. Fifteen million people in the Holy Land, half of them are Jews and half are not. As for the US … your position ignores, I fear, the fact that Biden has stood by Israel, while most of the world has not, while Israel has … led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people in Gaza. He at this point stands to lose the election because of his support for Israel. He has declared himself a Zionist. He declares himself a Zionist at a time in history where because of the Jewish extreme right, because of the Israeli extreme right having dragged the reputation of Zionism through the mud, for someone to say they’re a Zionist, much less when they’re the U.S. President, is an act of bravery. I think there is more than a whiff of ingratitude.
JP: Biden doesn’t even know what planet he’s on. Somebody’s hands him the notes, pulls the string and he talks.
DP: I think it would be unwise for either one of us to engage in ageism at this point in history. I’m saying it’s a complex situation. The US has stood by Israel. And a little bit of gratitude might perhaps not be the un-Jewish thing.
JP: Gratitude for what they’ve just done to us? Threatening us to close bank accounts of Israeli citizens that haven’t committed any crimes? Acting like the British mandate again? That’s not what a friend does. That’s not what an ally does.
DP: We’re talking about a handful of settlers who are accused of terrorizing the Palestinians (see AP story — DP). You’re misrepresenting what Biden did. … I’ll make it real simple, guys: Without Biden’s support, Israel would no longer be able to carry out the war.
JP: You don’t know anything about the Israeli military establishment except what the people that created Oct. 7th have fed you. Those people shouldn’t even be in charge of the war right now. They should be in jail facing dereliction of duty.
DP: Who created Oct. 7th? And is supposedly feeding me? I’ve lost a train of your thought.
JP: All you parrot are the same people, the same security experts, quote-unquote, who led us into Oct. 7th. These people shouldn’t be anywhere near …
DP: I have to find myself in extraordinary agreement with you. The military leaders on Oct. 7th absolutely are responsible and should resign forthwith — and the same applies for the unwise political leadership that bears culpability no less, but runs away from it in a display that is rather pitiful.
EH: Gentlemen, the hostage deal on the table. Hostage deal, ceasefire.
JP: I am totally opposed to a ceasefire of any duration and I’m in favor of fighting to victory and by doing that, gaining the release of our hostages. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anybody would attempt to seize defeat from the jaws of victory. Do I feel for our hostages? From a very personal standpoint, yes, I do. But unfortunately, we’ve allowed them to become weaponized, not just by Hamas, but by certain elements within Israel that see them as a very useful tool to bring down the current right-wing government. There’s only one way to get them home, and that’s with the IDF fighting and destroying.
DP: Is that not also a path forward that risks bringing them home but in body bags? I mean, do you not see, given your own military expertise, the danger if the hostages are indeed holed up with elements of the Hamas leadership in Rafah and Israel goes in there into their last redoubt? Do you not fear for their lives? Or indeed are you prepared to sacrifice their lives?
JP: I hear you. You know who I fear for? Eight million other hostage people that could be held hostage (The Jews of Israel, roughly, but not the 2 million Arab citizens – DP).
DP: Are you saying you’re prepared to sacrifice the hostages?
JP: Sometimes you have to make, as it was said to me, as it was said to me, sometimes the country has to make sacrifices. And that was said directly to me, and I sat for basically 35 years (Pollard moved to Israel three years ago, 35 years after his arrest in the US). … It’s a hard call. But that’s why we elect people to make that call.
DP: But you should not, with respect, disrespect those who look for a solution that would both remove Hamas and get back to hostages alive. To portray that as some act of weakness or a quisling’s attitude, I think, is unfortunate.
JP: I think the issue is that there are some things that are permissible in times of peace that are not permissible under any circumstances in times of war. And when you undertake actions that either dilute or delay or even undermine the primary objective of a country’s war plan, which is in this case the quick destruction of Hamas, then, well, I’m sorry, but you’re aiding the enemy.
DP: Look, democracy is tested when it’s difficult. Free speech is tested when the other speaker enrages you. Israel, despite being in a state of war for 76 years almost, has never really given up on its democracy. And I fear when I hear voices from the extreme right – and I understand you’re proposing to join them and I urge you not to because that’s not the right path in history – that they would be willing to. And Israel would go down a path that we would come to regret, as other countries that have been seduced by fascism have come to regret their past actions.
